We’ve got a 3D Mixed Media artist on the show today that we are interviewing named, Leisa Rich. We have featured her before in a past episode. The way we found her was just through our research for interesting 3D printed objects out there or 3D printing artists. Hers was art. She had some installations and was using 3D printing in really interesting ways.
She caught our eye because her art is very textile. It has a lot of textile art background. That’s where she started. You can see that influence of weaving, sowing, and all of those things which I felt a connection to, being part of my background as well. I think that her work just resonated with us. We loved it and we talked about it on the air. She reached out to us and thanked us. We didn’t talk to her at that time, we were just featuring interesting artists. She introduced us to John Rich of Moxie who we had a great episode with, which is her husband. I have written multiple articles on him since then for Inc Magazine because he is doing some really cool things with his innovation lab at Moxie. We went and I had, at CES, a meeting with him to do an interview. He said, “Leisa is here.” He texted her and she came running over from wherever she was visiting down in the Vegas area, came and sat with us for a little bit. We got to catch up and chat. We thought, “Wow. We have to have her actually on the show.”
She is doing some really interesting things. She continues to use 3D printing in her art as one of the various methods and materials that is incorporated into her art projects. These are art exhibits and installations that are being shown at some major events. She has been entered into these juried events and being one that’s selected from just thousands and thousands of entries. She is doing some really incredible work. It is really interesting, we get to have some conversation with her about some of the difficulties of doing 3D printing as an artist if you are not so into that tech side of it, the issues, and what does that mean. It’s an interesting discussion. You get that art and technology debate and pull.
Leisa has a Master of Fine Arts, Bachelors of Fine Arts and a Bachelors of Art Education. She teaches in universities, art centers and in her own studio. She has books out that she has written, Textile Nature, 3D Mixed Media Textile Art. She has just recently had a fantastic collection and exhibit that was in Atlanta. She has just recently been a finalist in ArtFields, which is an upcoming exhibit in April. That’s a really prestigious art juried exhibit.
Listen to the podcast here:
3D Mixed Media Art with Leisa Rich
Hi, Leisa. I am so glad to talk to you again.
It’s great to be here.
We bumped in to you at CES and we thought we have to have you back on the show because you were talking about something so interesting. You were talking about how it’s a little bit frustrating that John is just not at your beck and call to be able to do whatever you want to do in CAD and make it happen for you while you are working on your art.
I really do need some minions, because he’s got a real job. He is my tech god. He is a busy guy. He’s got his own stuff going on. It’s a little frustrating because I do what I can, but he is so much more accomplished than I am. I have to give him credit for everything he does. It is a little bit frustrating. In any relationship, you’ve got give and take. You’ve got things that each person brings to the table. When you get into a relationship in which creativity is a strong soup for both individuals and they are creative in different ways and also maybe in the same way, it’s fantastic but at the same time that balance that you have, as one person like he does gives to the tech side of it as well as the creative side. On my hand, with absolute mind blowing head that’s just filled with ideas, it’s a little bit frustrating for me because I am not as proficient as he is in the tech side. I feel I am not getting as much done as I could get done if I had somebody at my beck and call.
I hear you. I feel the same way. Minions, that’s what we need. You mentioned that you have been diving in a little bit to trying the CAD part but that it was frustrating that you weren’t getting out. You obviously are learning it, so that was slowing you down. I think this is a really common problem for artists diving into using technology to supplement, to realize what they are trying to accomplish.
I think that there are levels of our artistry. Some artists are very well rounded. They’ve got the right brain and the left brain sewn up. John is one of those. He is very creative but he has also got a very analytical and technical brain. Those artists do have a particular advantage because they are able not only to realize their creative vision but they are able to execute it as well. Then you’ve got the artist who perhaps can learn some of those skills, which I would put myself somewhat into that category. I do a lot of other tech things for my artwork that involve a lot of skill but maybe are not as technically interested or proficient. I think it’s the level of interest. I am not really interested in getting into the extreme technical aspects of 3D printing. It just doesn’t do anything for me to sit there at the computer, look at a two dimensional screen and try and make my three dimensional vision a reality, technically.
I totally understand that. That makes a lot of sense. It is slowing your creative process down right now. While you can learn it, it doesn’t mean you should.
That’s when you hire people. I like to delegate jobs. I pay for them. I believe that as I like to get paid as an artist and often don’t, I think that makes me even value more so the obligation that I have to pay people for their skills. Recently, I hired somebody to install and de-install my solo exhibition. I was there, obviously. I was working very hard as well. But to have that person who knew how to handle all of the hardware and did it expeditiously and professionally in a timely manner was worth every bit of the money I paid to him. I think that it’s really important that we recognize our positives, our negatives, our strengths and our weaknesses, and try to find a way to hire the people who can help us realize the visions if we perhaps don’t want to do those skills or don’t quite feel we have the expertise to do those skills.
There are probably a lot of skills that you have, artistic skills that you learned, either in your education, before formal education or after, or trial and error that are technical skills of one kind or another, manipulating certain materials to achieve your art. Would you agree?
Sure, like the sewing machine. I have been sewing for 42 years now. The first time I was learning to sew, my mother was teaching me in 1971. A sewing machine seems like a relatively simple thing, but when you actually start getting into computerized machines and industrial machines, all of which I have, you start to get into a level of technical prowess that not everyone takes to like a fish in water. I remember she got very frustrated with me. She was a very controlled woman and very calm. But she got really frustrated with me because I didn’t want to do it the way that she was teaching me, the right way to do it. I wanted to immediately explore and expand on what she was teaching me in an artistic way.
I think a sewing machine could be equated to a 3D printer. Somebody came over last Friday, another artist. She has been trying to sew on paper. She said, “I’ve got this old sewing machine. Everyone tells me it won’t do free motion machine embroidery. Can you sit down with me and see if it will?” She had three or four very proficient sewing friends. She brought it over to my studio and plunked it down on my table. In literally under one minute, I had it threaded, had the feed dogs dropped, which she said she didn’t think there was a way to do. I was showing her how to free motion stitch. I have a passion for sewing and incredible patience to do that. I think because it’s very hands-on and 3D printing is not very hands-on.
I think that’s really interesting that you say that. Tom says something all the time which I don’t have the capability of. CAD for him is like breathing, he says. He doesn’t think about it anymore. He just does in the system. His brain is like an extension of that. That’s how I feel about the sewing machine too because I grew up sewing. We have that same kind of nature where sewing for me, I don’t even think about it anymore. I just create.
I have, ever since back in Art School and even before that, I think I was taught to sew by my mother on and old Singer machine. When I got to college and I needed to do some sewing for part of my design work, I just did it. I learned about it on the way. I actually know what a feed dog is, but I am sure most of our listeners don’t, especially probably most of the men. They understand what a nozzle is and they understand what a stepper motor is and some of these things. Tracy’s eyes and yours may glaze over when we talk about those things. It’s just a different technical aspect of a machine.
You said that 3D printing is not very hands-on. I bet a lot of people in 3D printing would disagree with that. I think it is very hands-on in terms of the machine, the way a sewing machine is. Even if working in a computer, creating what you might print, may seem less hands-on because it’s more in a virtual world of the computer. I tend to think that the realities of how much someone is willing to jump in and learn, in this interview so far we’ve been calling it some of the more technical side of 3D printing. I guess I don’t see it quite that way. I think that it’s more generational. If, honestly, you were in college now, in art school, you might very well learn CAD just like you would learn to sew and it’s just another skill in your bag.
I would agree with you. There is a little mini story that I want to tell that shows maybe that’s not always the case. A couple of years ago, I did an art exhibition that I curated of works by sixteen artists from around the world, who were informed by their invisible disabilities and created artwork for this exhibition. John brought his four robots. We got it all pre-setup with the artists in South Africa and the artists in Canada, so that they knew how to guide these robots around the exhibition. At the opening reception, they could not only go and view the exhibition and go to their work and everyone else’s, but they can also have conversations with the attendees at my opening reception.
The really interesting take away from that night that struck John and I were that all of the attendees at the exhibition, there were probably 130 to 140 people there, there were in the excess of 50 who would go right up to the robot and would immediately talk on the iPad to the artists in South Africa and Canada with no compunction whatsoever. They just began a conversation. It was just, “Come on over and I will tell you about my artwork.” Whereas all of the young people there were freaked out by the robots and refused to interact with the artists who were on these robots.
To this day, I think about that often, because you are right. Children, young people, people of younger generation and who are perhaps in university programs now, they are going to dive right in. They are going to take this like a fish to water. But even among them, I think that what Tracy and I are probably responding to is that tactile quality of touch and that sensory that you are equating the hands-on with the designing on the program. But it doesn’t use that tactile touch sense that is ever changing, controlling and rolling through your fingers.
Even a lot of the young people today are responding, in the DIY movement and beyond, in art, etc. to going back to learn wood turning, to learning weaving, sewing and some of those arts, in an effort to meld all of these together, the technical with that quality of human need to touch. I think that exemplifies what I am trying to do with my artwork. That is to involve people in utilizing all of their senses in a way that some 3D printing doesn’t do. It’s a beautiful, extraordinary object that we “ooh” and “aah” at the technical prowess that has been used to create it. It’s beauty and it’s intrigue, but sometimes it leaves me a little bit flat because sometimes it seems that some of the things don’t have some of that soul.
I don’t disagree with you in terms of the tactile experience. When I think about my life’s journey in design, which started as a young boy, certainly it was so much involved in tactile reality of materials and making things, manipulating those materials. At some point, I see things in my mind’s eye and I want to make them. That is not a tactile experience as I am thinking about something three dimensional I want to make, nor is it when I am working on the computer. I think also, when I want to make something out of wood that I would turn it on a laithe, I still have to either draw it or I have to have a vision of it. I have to draw it. I have to represent it somehow. I somehow have to figure out, make some decisions as to what I want to make before I go and make it on that machine or with multiple machines.
In what I do, I think there’s always a part of the process not unique to the 3D printing experience that involves working in a virtual world to make some decisions before working with real materials, whether that virtual world is in your head or sketching in paper or in the computer.
True and beautiful. We are all thinking the same way, just utilizing different approaches to try to realize those visions and those ideas.
The other night, I listened in a Women in 3D Printing Talk panel. There was something really interesting that one of the women said there, that it doesn’t matter how you get to 3D printing in her mind. It was either you come in through the art or wanting to create something and you head in to the science or math side of it, whatever you want to call the 3D printer. She called it science. You head in to the technology because you want to achieve something through your art. You are trying to make that happen. You have to head in hacking the technology to get it to do what you want it to do. Or you come in from the technology side or the science side, as you are doing it, you realize you are heading into the art side, into the creation and the artistic process. You have to make some of those decisions.
It really doesn’t matter which direction you come in from, because in a way you are improving the technology and both directions are necessary to make it good enough. That’s what I think you and I want from the technology. We want it to be a bit more responsive to our artistic process and others want it the other way.
The person that exemplifies that in the world today to the highest degree would be the designer, Iris Van Herpen. Iris Van Herpen has taken art and fashion design and is working with scientists and visionary people in all sorts of different scientific ways to create these sculptural works that surpass anything that anybody else in the world is doing today. I actually met her last spring and spoke with her. She is an extraordinary person and is doing exactly that. She has this vision. She has now tapped in to all of these extraordinary people who work with metal and magnets to create a new kind of rubber that is like the peaks when you beat egg white to create meringue. This incredible rubber that they do by pulling these metal filaments up through the rubber process with a magnet and slews of 3D printing that just blows the mind.
I think you are right. I think what I am trying to do is to find a way to meld art with technology in a way that it is accessible and that can help me realize my visions. I admire and look to the people who are really able to do that in ways that far surpass what I am just doing here at home. I really admire that.
This is why I think you and I are both lucky in that we have partners who are technologically savvy enough to collaborate with us. As you well know, and I have the same problem that you do, there is not enough time in the day because everyone is busy to achieve our goals. I want to shift on though. I think this is such a fascinating conversation, but I want to shift on to really what you’ve been doing in your artwork and how. I think 3D printing has inspired you to move a little bit in a different direction from what I see from the artwork. Why don’t you talk a little bit about how it’s influenced the artistic message that you are making right now?
What I would love to talk about is the recent project that I did was a first foray for me, being a legally deaf person. I had a solo exhibition coming up just closed in January. It was up for three months. It was titled GrownUpLand. It was predicated on my trip after I got out of the hospital when they got some hearing back in my left ear, which is what I have today and actually it has lessened. My parents took me to Disneyland in California to celebrate getting out of the hospital and being a child. I will never forget going on the It’s A Small World ride. Our childhood influences are very big in what we do as adults. That just played in my head. The bright colors, the dioramas, the scenes, the boat ride, the music, the little teenie music of that song. I had been doing a lot of thinking about that. I’ve decided to title my show GrownUpLand. I broke it up into sections including InnocentLand, HyperRealityLand, ListenUpLand, all of these different lands that you can tour through.
ListenUpLand was fascinating because it was the first time I’ve ever worked with sound. The logical thing was for me to realize that application through 3D printing gramophones. I got this idea in my head that I needed to make some sort of a communal sound symphony. Not a symphony, not music, but actually sound the way that I hear it, which is sometimes very pleasant and sometimes it is a terrible cacophony that is mind-boggling and just so disruptive to my brain that I have to leave that situation.
I wanted to also somehow force people to use their cell phones in a group manner, so that they would actually be interacting with each other. I was doing a lot of thinking about how to achieve all of these different things. I approached John and asked him if we could start working together on some sort of a gramophone. The first thing we did was we started off with a mini version of a traditional gramophone that had a slot. We were working on that. You can push your cell phone into the slot. That was fine, failures the first couple of them. The more I got thinking about it, I started to wonder if I should do an ear, that the gramophone instead should be these giant ears. We switched direction and started to work on designing some ear gramophones. But we ran into some trouble with the amplification of the sound. The way we were designing them, the sound wasn’t very effective.
Then I realized that I was going in the entire wrong direction and that I needed to focus more on the fact that this was about being a child. This was about the experience. This was about the bright, happy world of hanging out with a bunch of people and your cell phones, downloading these sounds, and making this symphony with them. Why wouldn’t I do something from the It’s A Small World ride? I emulated some of those flowers and we began to create these floral, these crazy, beautiful, big gramophone flowers that had a slot. We printed everything in three pieces because we have to test for it at home. We needed to slot them together and print them individually so we could have them be large enough and what we needed. He helped so much with that.
I am looking at the pictures of it right now. I see what you mean. As I look at the flowers, it not only reminds me of It’s A Small World. We live twenty minutes from Disney Land. I cannot tell you how many times I have been there. I do even still, like you, remember my very first trip which was a reward from both my parents for something. It reminds me of the Alice in Wonderland ride because it looked like the crazy flowers that talked to you and sing to you. It has that same sense and coloration. I love that. It certainly is my daughter’s experience of it as well.
I think that’s really interesting. If I want to make sure that I understand how this picture works. Is it like each one records a sound and then they are all communicating through that side or you put your cell phone on the little platform?
If you look at that, you will see record albums at the bases. Those record albums have a URL, and I have a designated URL. I downloaded all kinds of sounds to the URL. You just hit one click. You just go to the URL, you just scroll, and you pick which sound you want. One person will pick rain. The next person will pick maybe a baby crying. Another person will pick various different sounds. What happens is I didn’t want it to be too little and I didn’t want it to be too much, so I created a station for five cell phones. I had no idea if this was going to work or not.
John and I tested it out with our two cell phones. We got to the opening reception and it really was the first time that it had been packed. People were just clamoring to put their cell phone in and to download these sounds. We were shocked at how extraordinarily, incredibly, just wonderful. All these sounds worked together. Even when they were a cacophony, they were interesting. All you had to do was just scroll to a new one and you have a whole different symphony so it changes throughout the entire evening.
You had basically experiential art right there for all of your audience. Did you take a video of it? Is there a video of it online somewhere?
We actually had a problem. We didn’t get a video of the ListenUpLand. However, I am a finalist in ArtFields, which is a big art competition. It is going on in April in Lake City, South Carolina. I think there were 4,000 entries or something and they chose 40 artists. I am taking the entire Willow Weep For Me, the big huge hanging installation, and I am installing ListenUpLand inside of that. We will be having the attendees and viewers interact there. Hopefully, I will get video at that event and have something to post. There are little bits and pieces on YouTube here and there of ListenUpLand, but nothing I feel is really fantastic. Hopefully, I’ll get something in April.
I hope so too. Please send it to us so we can get that. Things are going really well for you. It is very exciting. I am just fascinated by this work that you have done. I too have a textile background. It really resonates with me in the way that you explore and the way that you’ve dove into it. At the same time, you have that same fascination with technology. I think that people don’t realize how much textiles actually has a lot of science in it.
I think a lot of people don’t know that it is the Jacquard weaving loom and the punch cards that gave birth to the modern day computer. A lot of people who are into technology have heard that. When I talk to a lot of people about that weaving being the precursor to the computer, their jaw drops. They had no idea.
They probably never saw a Jacquard loom in person. When you see one, you really understand why it is. It is a technological feat and artistic one at that. It does both. It is amazing. Leisa, I am so glad we could catch up with you again. We really appreciate you being on the show.
I always love talking with you guys.
3D Mixed Media Art with Leisa Rich – Final Thoughts
Leisa mentioned about a Jacquard loom being one of the first computers. It is really true. I guess I want to call it an analog computer, maybe not a digital, but it was digital to an extent. It’s weird when she mentioned about cutting the cards, which are really the equivalent of the ones and zeros of a computer program, I have done it. I have cut those cards. There’s this very specific way you would color on a fine grid paper what your design would be for a textile, the colors and the positions would mean different things. I would cut the cards that get laced together into this major chain to run this loom.
When we had to learn that Jacquard design that she’s referring to and learn how to do the point paper, it is exactly like having to build up your image pixel by pixel. You have to know exactly where you are firing the loom at every single moment, what color is coming up and what it will look like at the end. The image you create, it’s not to scale. It’s not even proportional. You have a work sense of what it looks like.
To be able to think like that and create like that involves a lot of combination in your brain, the right and left brain that she talked about earlier and that balance. I feel like that’s a little bit why I have this balance in my brain. That is that science part of textiles which gives you a little bit more of what you would get than in maybe some other art fields. Woven textile design is a highly technical discipline. They teach it in as many Science Departments at various universities as they do Art Schools. It’s in both. I remember when we lived in Carolina, NC State was one of the universities where a lot of people got more of a technical education in textile design. You got a textile science degree.
Here is that thing that we were talking about with Leisa, about going art through science or science through art. Does it really matter at the end of the day which way you approach it as long as there is an artistic vision that is being explored and/or outputted? It’s like one or the other. It’s either outputted or it’s explored. That’s okay to me. I don’t think it matters either way. To put it in another way, it’s completely legitimate or valid from either perspective for sure. We have the opinion, why go spend the time to make something and 3D print something if it’s not unique? Why make something it could be made another way or that you could easily go to a store and buy something that serves the purpose? You have this wonderful opportunity with a 3D printer where you can make anything, so you might as well make something really special.
I keep going back to this idea that our education system is broken in a little bit of a way. We have a huge design gap, skill gap, creative gap going on in the 3D print industry, but it’s also in other industries. VR, AR, all of these worlds are going to have difficulties. I think we have to look at it from the perspective of early on, not just by the time you get to college or late high school, early on we have to give kids the ability to experience art and science together. Because it’s sometimes through the creation of art that you learn something about science or through the science that you come up with some vision and artistic expression. Not giving us renaissance children, which is what I would like to see here, well rounded renaissance children with great artistic minds and design thinking, art thinking. Are we really serving the technology well at the end of the day and is our technology serving us?
Watching artists like Leisa go through this and what’s going on and that frustration point. Technology is just not second nature for everyone. You have to learn it. If we can just make that so that it became second nature for everyone and really truly no different than picking up a pen, wouldn’t that be great? I actually took a typing class in junior high school. It was seventh grade. I had to actually take a class to learn how to type. I don’t know if that is done a whole lot anymore. It was on typewriters. It wasn’t even computers to touch type. Now, I don’t know if that’s really taught so much anymore. I think that’s the old school way of approaching it.
I was reading this study about the level of education in Finland. First of all, I don’t really want to move to Finland just to experience this educational process. They have this process where they skip these basic 101 classes that they force you to take, like typing, 101 how to 3D print or something like that. They just skip them. They have a quick summary about how the machine works and that’s it. You dive in and you do work. You do projects. You experience the things you need to know.
In the case of typing, why not have your creative writing class be a creative writing class that forces you to learn to use the typewriter at the same moment or learn how to keyboard? It is the same thing here. There should be classes that have sewing machines in them. There should be classes that have 3D printers in them. Maybe they are not the classrooms that we put them in right now. Maybe they shouldn’t be the math class or the science lab. Maybe they should be the art studio.
There were some fascinating results of the education system in Finland. They don’t go to school as much in the year. They don’t go to school as long in the day either. They start slightly later in life. They outscore consistently, pretty much every country. They are at the tops consistently in terms of results of education, retention of information and proficiency. The other part about it that I found so interesting was they used to be at the worst. They said, “Let’s scrap our entire education system and start again.” They reinvented themselves. How cool is that?
I want to talk a little bit more about Leisa’s specific art installation exhibit here that we were talking about. Think about this as a project and what it could teach students, to make something like a gramophone. A gramophone is a device that is taking a very small sound and amplifying it to be louder through nothing but physics of the three dimensional geometry of a cone. It is doing what is called impedance matching, which is what is amplifying the sound.
Think of an old school megaphone that might have been used by cheerleaders. I remember them at the docks in the harbor when people need to shout out to a boat. I am not talking about the ones that use batteries or electronics. It’s just a big cone and you can talk into it with a normal voice and your voice is amplified and projected at a great distance. This is similar. You have the little speakers on a cell phone, which is what Leisa was talking about. You could download the particular audio file and put your cell phone in a certain position. It would amplify and project the sound in a certain way, which is what she is working on and achieved with her exhibit.
I think that there’s such an incredible learning experience, an adventure and a playful fun that can happen as a student. I am not just talking kids. It could be an adult student. I’d have a ton of fun with it. I guarantee there are way more adults standing around this thing and couldn’t wait to use it as kids were. I appreciate Leisa’s story, and of course having been deaf as a child and going through her experience, how wonderful for her now to be able to hear everything, and at that time with her parents having that be a treat. That’s wonderful. I am glad she loves that ride, among others. The result of this could have been that as she put it like that distractive, horrible, ear grinding sound that would be mixed by everyone would actually mirror your experience in Small World. Or it could sound great and be experiencing what our daughters hear, they think it’s fantastic. I love that it could be both in what she has done here which is really an interesting idea.
I think she is really pushing the envelope artistically with how she is trying to do things. I think that the more that technology catches up and makes it easier for artists to do this, the better off it is for everyone. I think there is really something to be said for, especially, it’s easier for younger generations, new artists, designers or engineers to learn CAD programs and to have a literacy in use of the computer and other programs to be able to more easily, like I said, like breathing, be able to create what they want to create. I think that we can’t just leave it all to that though. I think there is a role for software companies to create programs that are easier to work with than others. Easier to take something in your mind’s eye and create it in a computer, in a three dimensional model to be able to print it. It would be nice when you don’t have to learn at that level of detail.
I also think that we forget, too often in the industry, our language doesn’t help us. It’s not the language of artists. It’s not the language of creation. It’s the language of science, technology, math or engineering. It’s also the language sometimes. They are like, “We’ll have features there.” “How would I know it’s called that?” It’s not logical. It’s buried within three menus deep of functions. In order to know that it’s there, you have to be shown and you have to think about where it is. “It’s okay. It’s three layers deep in this area, how you would do that. Then boom, you just got taken right out of your creative mind. You are now thinking about the steps it take to do something rather than just doing it. That’s not a great situation.
For artists like Leisa and other people out there, I think this is a time where those of you who are really technologically proficient in 3D printing and feel like you are not getting to do enough with it, find an artist to collaborate with. There are people out there looking for someone to be their tech buddy and to really get with it and explore it. Because you are going to learn just as much from them as they are going to be able to achieve something that they are not able to achieve today. It’s going to be a mutually beneficial process. We find that every day when we collaborate together. I feel that’s what I hear from Leisa and John. They get that together as well. There is an expansion on both parts. There is definitely something for everyone there. Certainly, I think it can be and should be a win-win experience. I would highly recommend that. In order to advance things and push things further, we may have to reach out and work with others. It certainly never hurts to ask.
Speaking of asking, here at 3D Start Point and the WTFFF Podcast, we are looking for interns. We are looking for people to help us with some projects. It doesn’t really matter where in the world you are. We are looking for some people to help us with some projects. If you are interested, please send us a message at 3DStartPoint.com. You can fill out the form at the bottom of the Home Page or reach out to us on Facebook @3DStartPoint.
We hope you guys will comment and share some of your artistic comments and ideas and some of the ways you collaborated with artists or have felt that 3D printing is making the artistic process easier or better for you. We’d love to hear some more about that. Please reach out to us. This has been I think a fun episode. Hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. This has been Tom and Tracy on the WTFFF 3D Printing Podcast.
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